Campaign of the Month: March 2009
Denizens of the Nentir Vale
Five adventurers from the Front Range travel to the Nentir Vale. Together, they explore ruins, defeat monsters, discover treasure, and generally try to avoid getting eaten.
Keep on the Shadowfell
Heroes
- Barrick – Male Dwarf Fighter
- Felsmon of Clan Kengi – Male Dragonborn Paladin
- Skamos Redmoon – Male Tiefling Wizard
- Tira Duskmeadow – Female Half-Elf Warlock
- Z’alden Silverflame – Male Half-Elf Cleric
Adventures
I. Journey to Winterhaven – July 10, 2008
II. Assault on the Kobold Lair – Aug 22, 2008
III. Victory and Mourning After the Kobolds Lair – online comments
IV. To The Keep on the Shadowfell – Sept 5, 2008
V. A Meeting With Sir Keegan – Oct 3, 2008
VI. Close to the Rift – Nov 7, 2008
VII. Sealing the Rift or… The Thing in the Portal – Nov 29, 2008
Thunderspire Labyrinth
Heroes
- Barrick – Male Dwarf Fighter
- Felsmon of Clan Kengi – Male Dragonborn Paladin
- Z’alden Silverflame – Male Half-Elf Cleric
- Rift – Female Eladrin Wizard
- Erik Stormgrund – Male Human Ranger
Adventures
I. Discovering Thunderspire – online comments
II. Inside the Bowels of Thunderspire – Jan 2, 2009
III. The Chamber of Eyes – Jan 24, 2009
IV. Near Death in a Cube – Feb 13, 2009
V. Into the Horned Hold – Mar 22, 2009
VI. Storming the Horned Hold – Apr 24, 2009
VII. Endurance in the Horned Hold – May 3, 2009
VIII. Escape from the Horned Hold – Out of the Frying Pan… – June 19, 2009
IX. Mirror Mirror on the Wall – July 21, 2009
X. Grab the Bell by the Horns – August 12, 2009
XI. The Doors Burst Asunder – August 28, 2009
XII. Rising from the Ashes – Sept 25, 2009
XIII. The Hand and the Eye – Oct 23, 2009
XIV. But For a Single Door – Nov 10, 2009
Temple of the Serpent
Heroes
- Barrick – Male Dwarf Fighter
- Felsmon of Clan Kengi – Male Dragonborn Paladin
- Rift – Female Eladrin Wizard
- Erik Stormgrund – Male Human Ranger
- Tira Duskmeadow – Female Half-Elf Sorceress
- Torrock – Male Dragonborn Shaman
- Z’alden Silverflame – Male Half-Elf Cleric
Adventures
I. The Party Reforms – online comments
II. Played by a Girl – Dec 20, 2009
III. The Horses Spook – Jan 23, 2010
IV. Weapons – February 19, 2010
V. Beyond the Great Tree – April 2, 2010
VI. Sad Snorbaugh – April 30, 2010
VII. Conversations with a Pretty Girl – June 11, 2010
VIII. Scene 8: The Colossus Stirs – July 15, 2010
IX. Near Death in a Tomb – August 5, 2010
X. Observations of a Pretty Girl – September 11, 2010
XI. Bowling for Zombies – October 24, 2010
XII. Z’alden’s Dream – January 2, 2011
XIII. After a while, … – January 14, 2011
XIV. What a Way to Go… – February 11, 2011
XV. Party for a Pretty Girl – April 22, 2011
XVI. All Shall Burn – June 29, 2011
XVII. March of the Firelands – July 31, 2011
Intermission
Finnegan’s Wake – August 26, 2011
A Nameless Horror
Heroes
- Barrick – Male Dwarf Fighter
- Felsmon of Clan Kengi – Male Dragonborn Paladin
- Z’alden Silverflame – Male Half-Elf Cleric
- Erik Stormgrund – Male Human Ranger
- Tira Duskmeadow – Female Half-Elf Sorceress
- Rift – Female Eladrin Wizard
Adventures
I. A Rude Awakening – online comments
II. Sky Pirates – September 16, 2011
III. Puzzles, Riddles, and Spikes… Oh my! – October 14, 2011
IV. You’re a mean one, Mr. Acererak – November 27, 2011
V. Bubble, Bubble, Ooze, and Trouble – January 6, 2012
VI. The Book of Nate – February 3, 2012
VII. Eight Virtues – May 4, 2012
VIII. Musica Universalis – June 15, 2012
IX. Disconcerted in the Key of B – July 15, 2012
X. Betrayal on the Beach – September 8, 2012
XI. Memento Mori – October 5, 2012
Rise of The Burning Legion
Heroes
- Barrick – Male Dwarf Fighter
- Z’alden Silverflame – Male Half-Elf Cleric
- Erik Stormgrund – Male Human Ranger
- Tira Duskmeadow – Female Half-Elf Sorceress
- Rift – Female Eladrin Wizard
Adventures
I. A Warning Letter – November 12, 2012
II. Outside the Temple – November 16, 2012
III. That’s What It Said – January 25, 2013
IV. In Too Deep – March 15, 2013
V. Poetry in Motion and a Touch of Frost – May 11, 2013
VI. Phase to phase with exploding stars – June 28, 2013
VII. Pirates of the Astral Sea – 27 September 2013
VIII. D&D – The Holiday Musical – 1 November 2013
IX. The Good that Lurks in the Hearts of Monsters – 30 December 2013
X. 30% Chance of Demons – 31 January 2014
XI. Trawling for Demons – 18 April 2014
XII. And the Silence Fell – 23 May 2014
XIII. Disturbing the Peace – 22 August 2014
XIV. The Perfect Heist – 22 December 2014
XV. Dirty Deeds – 02 January 2015
XVI. Through the Looking Glass – 17 April 2015
Advance of the Burning Legion
Heroes
- Barrick – Male Dwarf Fighter
- Z’alden Silverflame – Male Half-Elf Cleric
- Tira Duskmeadow – Female Half-Elf Sorceress
- Rift – Female Eladrin Wizard
- Varis – Male Elf Monk
- Erik Stormgrund – Male Human Ranger
Adventures
I. Massacre at Coradra Gap – 12 June 2015
II. A Dragon’s Pawn – 31 July 2015
III. Ending with a Bang – 4 September 2015
IV. Cracked – 18 December 2015
V. The Future of the Future – 8 January 2016
VI. Kleptospiders – 29 April 2016
VII. Unknotting World Lines – 03 June 2016
VIII. Forces Beyond Our Control – 10 June 2016
IX. The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly – 05 July 2016
X. Float Like a Beholder, Sting Like a Barbed Devil – 12 July 2016
XI. 100% Chance of Demons – 16 September 2016
XII. Two Down, One to Go – 4 November 2016
XII. A Golden Shower – 6 January 2017
XIII. So Let It Be Written – 19 May 2017
Denizens of the Nentir Vale Comments
I’m not sure what to make of whetstones. With ranged weapons, it would seem that they apply to the ammunition and one would be forced to take the greater of the weapon’s enchantment and the ammunition’s enchantment. (Barring stacking enchantments, such as “cold” damage.) Does it apply to a single arrow? And what of melee weapons? A single attack? They are very powerful, so I’d say either play the way we have been or discard them altogether – even ones that do stacking damage.
Advers,
One additional thought. The other kinds of whetstones would seem to be able to stack with a magical weapon, because they are doing ongoing damage and not giving an enhancement bonus.
Dear Advers,
In the Adventurer’s Vault 2 section ( page 26 ) that introduces magical ammunition, the description specifically mentions “Ammunition applies an enhancement bonus to an attack roll and damage roll when used. If the projectile weapon is magical, use the ammunition’s enhancement bonus in place of the weapon’s enhancement bonus.” That is the bummer part. However, interestingly, “The weapon’s critical bonus and the properties from the weapon and the ammunition still apply. Using magic ammunition doesn’t prevent you from activating a magic weapon’s powers.”
Does this make sense? Ammunition has an enhancement bonus. Magic weapons have an enhancement bonus. Bonuses of the same type don’t stack.
In the description of whetstones in the Adventurer’s Vault, there is no such reminder, but it seems to make sense that we if can’t have +3 arrows adding a bonus to a magical bow, then we shouldn’t having +3 whetstones to our melee weapons.
Thoughts?
Thank you! There should be a new one soon.
Some truly awesome adventure logs!
Truly an impressive campaign. Information rich, which I love. Great story. And incredible detail. Well done all around.
My group (No Rest for the Wicked) just finished Thunderspire Labyrinth and I’ve been reading through your old adventure logs and find it fascinating how the decisions we made make the storyline differ from yours. There seems to be a lot of player contribution as well. I like how you used the comments in your adventure logs to continue the play and get some issues hammered out before you get back to the table. Really good job!
Thanks Dyluth. It’s fun to exercise our creative writing skills. We rotate GMs and since it was my turn to write up the session, I chose to set things up a bit for when I’m GM in a few sessions from now. The pretty girl (Elena) was in past one-off adventure (look for “Played by a Girl”) and is fun to write about. Our current campaign is really heating up and our best writers are up next, so stay tuned.
This campaign page just might host the most detail and information filled home page I’ve seen so far here on Obsidian Portal. Also I love the way you’ve written your adventure logs, I can’t wait to see if “Uncle” keeps his neck snapping word if that orb is used again ;).
I haven’t been exploring the site long enough that this is as meaningful as it could be, but this campaign’s page is one of the most impressive ones I’ve seen. It’s exceedingly well-organized. I wish I had been using this site from the start, and going forward, I think I’ll be aping this style. Just wanted to commend you.
Just wanted to stop by and say that this is a very interesting campaign, and I really like the way you organized the information in your “Home” page.
I copied your Home layout and added a couple of banner for each adventure, I hope you don’t mind.
Hope to see this campaign go on till epic tier.
Hi Brandon, I scanned in the map from the DM’s guide, then I used Gimp on the Mac to do the “fog of war” to show where the party had explored. I then uploaded the map as a PNG to the Obsidian Portal website. Once it’s uploaded, you can use the “Add Wiki Markers” to add pins to the map. Hope this helps.
Excellent site. How did you create your map? Did you use a specific program? I have a hand-drawn map on mine but google maps won’t display it for some reason.
Oh, good point. And, WotC could have clarified it in the errata just like they clarified that the Hunter’s Quarry of the Multiclass ranger lasts until the end of the next turn, so the junior Ranger gets 2 rounds of Quarry.
I do not think it does. I think the specifics of the multiclass feat override anything in the spell. “Once per day” means once per day, not twice, regardless of how many times per encounter. If it was a two part spell, with each part used in separate rounds, then yes both parts could be executed, but as this would be two independent castings of the spell it would violate the “once” specification.
Completely unrelated. Barrick now has the Inspiring Word power via his Warlord multiclass. Z’alden is considering taking it also (and giving up his multiclass ranger). The multiclass feat description says (PHB208) Once per day, you can use the warlord’s inspiring word power. The Inspiring Word power (PHB145) has a Special that says You can use this power twice per encounter, but only once per round.
Does this “twice” in the power description mean that the multi-class warlord gets to use Inspiring Word twice in the encounter in which he is using the power once per day? I think it does.
In fact, in description of charge (PHB288) “No further actions after you resolve a charge attack, you can’t take any further actions this turn, unless you spend an action point to take an extra action.” (emphasis mine). Nifto.
Works for me. I did not realize (or remember) that spending an Action Point was a free action. On a related note, this also means that an action point can be used after a charge, instead of forcing the end of the turn. I am not sure if this was ever an issue, but with charging becoming more common it might make a difference.
Here’s a sticky point. We all thought that we couldn’t spend an action point when we were dazed, but the Wizards of the Coast Customer service answered a question in the FAQ for the Player’s Handbook <http: />
31. Can I spend an action point while I’m dazed?
Yes. Spending an action point is a free action, and you can take free actions while you’re dazed.
What do you guys think? It sort of makes sense to me.
You can only attack or use benefits from the item in your primary hand (with a few exceptions, shields, Erik, ...). Thus the staff would have to be switched out of the primary hand to use the wand, and then, whilst holding both items, a switch would need to be made before using the other item. If I was DM I would say that it would be a minor action to switch items between hands if both hands are full, but a free action if one hand is empty (e.g., minor action for Erik to swap his two readied swords, but free action for Rift to move her staff to her empty hand). Thus one minor could go from staff in primary hand to staff in off hand and wand pulled out into the primary hand, with additional minor actions required for more hand swapping or stowing.
Hypothetical question: Suppose a wizard using a staff as an implement wants to pull out a wand for some reason. Does the wizard have to stow the staff to use the wand, or can the wizard switch the staff to the other hand to use the wand? There is a minor action to get the wand out, but would there have to be a minor action to stow the staff?
Thanks, DM! I thought the same.
DM: In the stats I have for Felsmon it lists an “Amulet of Health” with the word statue appearing in the flavor text. If that is the case then it does take up the neck slot. Magic items left in your backpack do not confer any bonuses, thus the “statue” must be worn somewhere, and if not on a chain around the neck, then where? Typically neck slot items, and only neck slot items, enchance Fortitude, Reflex and Will, so I would say that it counts as a neck slot item and could not be used in addition to any other neck slot item.
DM: Felsmon has a statue of health. It give +1 Fort, Ref, and Will and give 5 resist poison. Would an amulet stack with the statue, or is it taking up his “neck slot” even though it isn’t around his neck?
Thanks commonsd! Just trying out different formats, to keep the Adventure Logs interesting!
I would like to interject to say that your comics are great!
I agree… should be able to shift from adjacent to adjacent without penalty.
A separate question on movement. A monster is adjacent to a fighter. The fighter has not marked the monster. The monster shifts to another square that is also adjacent to the fighter. Since the monster shifted and was not marked, I think that neither an opportunity attack or a combat challenge basic melee attack can occur. Does everyone agree with me?
Offhand, I don’t see why the monsters also could not Aid Another, but the PHB does say “character” in the description.
I agree, we did misplay Aid Another.
Re-reading the rules: Aid Another as an attack must be against a target within melee reach and is a melee basic attack vs AC 10. The target must be the same target the ally is attacking or defending against. Aid Another as a skill check requires that the ally be adjacent.
Thanks for pointing this out, we will follow the proper rules in the future.
Can monsters also Aid Another?
Group: I think we may have misplayed the “Aid Another” action. From PHB 287 describing the Aid Another Attack Roll: “Choose a target within your melee reach and make a melee basic attack vs. AC 10” (emphasis mine). So, Z’alden and Rift probably shouldn’t be able to cheer on anyone unless they are within melee reach of the target. Sidenote: this Aid Another melee attack can give the recipient a +2 bonus to all defenses against the target’s next attack, instead of a +2 to the next attack roll. Any thoughts on this?
can the ranger choose who to alert?
Yes.
Can he choose only those who are surprised?
He can choose anyone, after the surprise is initiated, including those that are not surprised.
Does the ranger count among those affected?
Yes, automatically. Erik does not count as one of the “chosen” ones.
For example, Erik’s wisdom modifier is +2, so can he pick himself plus two others, completely of his choosing, knowing which were otherwise surprised and which weren’t?
Yes.
The 6th level ranger exploit “Evade Ambush” allows the ranger to alert others to danger. Just to be clear, can the ranger choose who to alert? Can he choose only those who are surprised? Does the ranger count among those affected? For example, Erik’s wisdom modifier is +2, so can he pick himself plus two others, completely of his choosing, knowing which were otherwise surprised and which weren’t?
If it is a two weapon attack, then yes you can draw both weapons as part of the attack.
Here is the description of the Quick Draw feat:
Prerequisite: Dex 13 Benefit: You can draw a weapon (or an object stored in a belt pouch, bandolier, or similar container, such as a potion) as part of the same action used to attack with the weapon or use the object. You also gain a +2 feat bonus to initiative checks.
The question is, does the feat allow one to draw two weapons as part of a single quick draw?
Making a minor mark is a minor action. Writing out complete directions to somewhere, or writing the full recipe for making umber hulk jerky, would be a standard action. Getting the chalk out of your backpack, making a mark, and returning the chalk to the backpack would require three minor actions.
Is making a mark on the ground with the Eternal Chalk a standard action, a minor action, or a free action?
Yes. PHB255: Administering a potion to an unconscious creature is usually a standard action.
DM, if a character is unconscious, can another character get the unconscious one to drink a healing potion (maybe as a standard or standard and minor action)?
Right. Powers. Ritual casting is not a power. It is a “complex ceremony.” Reasonable, thanks!
Unfortunately no. Both the Healing Lore and Beacon of Hope enhance powers, and neither the potion, nor the creation of one, involves a power. The Belt of Sacrifice does not help either as the healing surge value does not come into play.
Since a healing potion has the Healing keyword, do Z’alden’s healing potions, get the +3 Healing Lore bonus? If Z’alden makes a healing potion while under the Beacon of Hope, does that potion also get the +5 hp bonus?
Trying to maximize the healing for that healing surge spent!
Any rest, of any length, eliminates any remaining temporary hit points.
DM: Do temporary hit points vanish at an extended rest, a short rest, or both? The player’s handbook just reads “rest”.
Correct. Let the flaming begin!
If Rift uses a “Fire” keyword attack spell, then Rift should get the spell’s damage plus the extra 1d6 for igniting the oil for another 2 rounds (save ends). At least, that was my thinking of why this would be good and cool.
Rift can use Prestidigitation to light a small fire, so presumably she could ignite the oil.
No. Lightning is electrical, not fire. I know that in real life electricity can sometimes start things on fire, but in the game Fire and Lightning are different.
Could Felsmon ignite the oil with his lightining breath?
If one lept over a flaming duergar, would the duergar get an opportunity attack?
Yes. Condition-wise a flaming creature is the same as a creature taking ongoing Fire damage (which does allow for the gamut of actions).
DM: If one lept over a flaming duegar, would the duegar get an opportunity attack?
Using a flask of oil as a weapon? Definitely! I like creative thinking.
Details:
Note that Sacred Flame is radiant, not fire, thus that particular power would not ignite oil.
New thought for coolness: If a baddie were doused in oil (from a flask of oil), could Z’alden’s Sacred Flame or one of Rifts fire spells ignite the baddie? Would they take ongoing 5 fire damage or something like that?
Still needing to jump over a flaming something…
Ah yes, the errata, I had forgotten to also look there; you are correct. :)
The PHB errata http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/updates pg 7 modified the Warrior of the Wild feat on page 208 of PHB to have the additional sentence The target you designate as your quarry remains your quarry until the end of your next turn. I thought that we were playing the errata. Is it ok to be playing it? If not, Z’alden can live with 1 round of Hunter’s Quarry instead of the 2nd go round.
For Erik, it definitely should be a minor action only when setting a new quarry, not every round if on the same quarry.
For Z’alden, I am not sure where you found the 2 rounds limitation. I thought Z’alden gained that feat through ranger multiclassing, in which case he can only do it once per encounter anyway. What am I missing?
Group: I think we may have been playing the Hunter’s Quarry Ranger feature incorrectly. I believe we have been playing (or at least Z’alden has) that a minor action is needed each round to designate the Quarry. But, looking over the PHB Ranger section, it says Hunter’s Quarry _Once per turn as a minor action, you can designate the enemy nearest to you as your quarry_ and then after some description says, _The hunter’s quarry effect remains active until the end of the encounter, until the quarry is defeated, or until you designate a different target as your quarry._
So, it seems to me, if in the round after the quarry has been designated, neither Z’alden nor Erik needs to use a minor action to deal extra damage to an already designated quarry. Of course, for Z’alden, with the Ranger feat, he only gets 2 rounds no matter what. But, for Erik, this interpretation may make more of a difference. What does the DM and everyone else think?
+1 to damage means just that, plus one. It does not matter whether the roll is 1d12 or 2d6 it is still +1. I know the word rolls (emphasis on the ’s’) can make it seem like each roll, but it is each set of damage.
Group Question on the multiplicity of the Weapon Focus Feat and Astral Fire Feat. From the PHB: Heroic Tier Benefit: Choose a specific weapon group, such as spears or heavy blades. You gain a +1 feat bonus to damage rolls with your chosen weapon group. At 11th level, this bonus increases to +2. At 21st level, it increases to +3.
If Z’alden has a power that does 2[W], and uses a mace (1d8), at levels 1-10 is the damage 2d8 + 2 or 2d8 + 1. In other words, does each d8 of the 2d8 count as a separate “damage roll”. I think it does, but I could also see a counter-argument that the 2d8 is one roll of 2 dice.
In the magic side, I would have the same question about Astral Fire (Heroic Tier Prerequisite: Dex 13, Cha 13 Benefit: You gain a +1 feat bonus to damage rolls when you use a power that has the fire or the radiant keyword. )
when using a power that has multiple dice (e.g., 2d8). Here, the argument is more clear to me that the 2d8 would only get a +1 damage, which makes me think that the Weapon Focus would also only be +1 damage no matter how many dice are in the weapon damage.
Opinions? Also, would the DM make a ruling?
Ongoing damage continues until you are dead (negative bloodied value). From PHB 295 on dying (below 0 HP), “Any additional damage you take continues to reduce your current hit point total until your character dies.” Even though you are unconscious the poison in your veins still continues to damage your body.
DM and Group: Random hypothetical question on ongoing damage. A character drops below zero hit points while undergoing ongoing damage. The character fails the saving throw at the end of his turn. At the start of his next turn, does the ongoing damage make him fall further into negative hit points, or like regeneration, does ongoing damage stop when you get to negative hit points?
Can the half-elf diletantte power be retrained to a different power?
No. That power is a racial trait, determined at the beginning, not a normal power, skill or feat that you learn/forget along life’s journey. Sort of like the type of the Dragonborn racial power Dragon Breath. Felsmon cannot retrain that from lightning to poison. If you want to get technical, the text says (PHB 42), “You can use that power as an encounter power.” Not any other power, that specific power.
Group and DM: Can the half-elf diletantte power be retrained to a different power? Since the half-elf could have chosen anything, it seems like it doesn’t qualify for the PHB prohibition on retraining race-specific powers. I am particularly interested in retraining for one of the new at-will powers (becomes encounter for the half-elf) in the martial power book. Thanks for your thoughts.
Great clarification on Healing, the Belt, and all. Thanks!
Will the +5 bonus to healing that the cleric power Beacon of Hope provides give the +5 to magic items
No, and Yes. The items themselves do not benefit, Z’alden does. When Z’alden uses a power with the Healing keyword then the value of any hit points listed in the power are increased by 5. This would affect the dwarven armor, but the Belt of Sacrifice is different. With the Belt, the +1 value is not under the Healing keyword and is not affected by this, or other healing bonuses. The Belt’s daily power is under the Healing keyword, but in this case there are no hit points gained/lost during this daily power so the +5 does not make any difference.
Also, how does Healer’s Lore wisdom bonus and the Beacon of Hope +5 work with regeneration?
If Z’alden uses a power that has the Healing keyword and provides +X regeneration then yes I think it would actually be +(X+bonus). Z’alden first power that provides regeneration is a level 9 power so that is a ways off right now. Barrick has an exploit that gives him regeneration, but as Z’alden is not the caster of that power Z’alden’s bonuses do not apply.
DM Question on stacking: Will the +5 bonus to healing that the cleric power Beacon of Hope provides give the +5 to magic items with the Healing keyword, such as the new Belt of Sacrifice or Z’alden’s dwarven armor? I am torn about whether it does or even should.
Also, how does Healer’s Lore wisdom bonus and the Beacon of Hope +5 work with regeneration? Do both add to the regeneration amount? I think that they should but I am open to a different interpretation.
In the PHB it says that combat ends when “the the combatants on one side are captured, fleeing, unconscious, or dead” I have wondered for some time how capture works and today I came across it and thought I would share it in case others do not know. This is not necessarily a hint from your DM.
In combat you can make an Intimidate vs. Will as a standard action. If successful you can force a bloodied target to surrender, among other options. Note that some monsters are listed as fighting to the death and cannot be forced to surrender, and that hostile monsters get a +10 to their Will during such an action.
Additionally when you reduce a creature to 0 hit points or fewer, you can choose to knock it unconscious rather than kill it. You can then either heal the creature to make it conscious or if the creature doesn’t receive any healing, it is restored to 1 hit point and becomes conscious after a short rest. The creature will still be hostile but you might be able to tie it up or secure it otherwise and then try the Intimidation vs. Will action listed above, but now outside of combat.
SirEdward, thanks for being open to other possibilities!
Life is good in the Nentir Vale, unless something is trying to whack your head off.
the nearest square from which you can attack the enemy
When I read the PHB, it seems that target is used when refering to a single monster whilst enemy is used when refering to the collective monster group in the encounter; hence my interpretation.
Oh, wait, I just did a google search and found a line from a WotC pre-release blurb that uses target instead of enemy, which does make sense as the opportunity attack option would otherwise be nil. Thanks for catching that.
SirEdward, I disagree with your assessment of You first find the nearest square to you from which you can make a basic melee attack to ANY enemy, not an enemy of your choice.
at least based on the text on PHB 287 you must move directly the nearest square from which you can attack the enemy. (emphasis mine).
I read “the enemy” as the one who is your target, not the nearest enemy out of a group who happens to be closest to you. The guidance I get on this is from PHB 269 Making an attack, 2. Choose targets for the attack.
I don’t see anything consistent with a limitation on the enemy that is the target.
I agree with your assessment on all of the other parts – you have to a make beeline and cannot steer around opportunity attacks. By your assessment, there could never, ever be the possibility of an opportunity attack since you would be charging the nearest available square of the enemy that you were passing.
Note that the charge can also be coupled to a bull rush instead of a basic melee attack. Having no choice in the target of the bull rush would be rather useless and not make sense to me.
So, other than the beeline aspect, I think we played it pretty correctly. It is effectively an additional at-will power that all characters share, and you do get the awesome double-move but sacrifice any other power usage. And you must use any moves and minor actions before the charge because, without an action point, your turn is over.
The pretty awesome aspect of charge is also consistent with how charge is described in the D&D 4e for Dummies book. Suppose your character is prone, from their pg 243 You start your turn prone with no enemies next to you. Standing up takes a move action, and then you can charge in order to move up to a monster and make a melee attack.
The last charging example in the Dummies book is a definite description of the “free move” aspect The monster you want to hit is so far away you can’t reach it in a single move action, but you could reach it in two. Use your first move action to get close and then charge with your standard action.
I think charging is pretty nifty with no other options, or if you plan on bull rushing your target (“the enemy”).
Is there somewhere else in the PHB that clarifies this to your reading? Thanks for thinking about it.
After reviewing the PHB, we were playing the Charge movement incorrectly. When you charge you do not have much choice of target enemy, destination square, nor path to take to your destination. You first find the nearest square to you from which you can make a basic melee attack to ANY enemy, not an enemy of your choice. If there are multiple possible equidistant squares you may choose one. If those squares are currently occupied you cannot charge at all. You must then move directly to that square, using the shortest path possible. If you have the choice of two paths, e.g., both 4 squares long you can choose either path, but you cannot take a 5 square path to avoid provoking an opportunity attack.
Thus when you were all lined up behind the door, the first character could make a charge to the nearest square to an enemy, but then that square would be occupied and no one else could make a charge unless they first moved such that their nearest square to an enemy is different.
This makes more sense to me, the other way seemed like too much of a free move.
DM and DM2B: Are we playing the weapons in the Adventurer’s Vault? Are our characters already proficient with the new weapons in their proficient weapon types?
Regarding weapon & armor proficiencies, your character is proficient with all weapons and armor listed on your class traits. And no, you cannot re-train any of these.
Regarding ranged attacks on adjacent targets, where is the fun if you can’t fire a crossbow into the orc standing in front of you? As I read the rules, if you start to prepare a ranged attack on any target, and there is an adjacent enemy (doesn’t have to be the target of the ranged attack), then that enemy can make an opportunity attack. This attack occurs before the ranged attack, but it doesn’t mess it up or anything (unless of course you get killed!).
On the feats and proficiencies, now I understand PHB (52) An armor or weapon proficiency you gain from a class counts as the appropriate Armor Proficiency or Weapon Proficiency feat. When I was thinking that we had a specific choice from the class list, then retraining to make a different specific choice makes some sort of sense. But, I think that if SirEdward is correct, and the class has all of the proficiencies listed, then this PHB is referring to meeting the prerequisites for certain feats.
Doesn’t the opportunity attack interrupt the action that provoked it?
Yes, you are right, and that adds another reason to why I feel that Tira could not attack an adjacent enemy with a ranged attack. Tira is focused on the troll, her wand is readied, she casts an Eldritch Blast, black lightning flies from the wand, but according to the opportunity attack interrupt rules the Troll somehow would realize what she is doing, turn away from Felsmon, and attacks Tira first in the space between the time Tira issued the attack and when the black lightning reached the troll an arm’s length away. And if the troll killed Tira in his attack then the lightning somehow disperses. That does not make sense to me. If Tira is focused on a distant goblin then sure, the troll could interrupt her attack, but not if Tira is focused on the troll itself. If ranged attacks cannot attack adjacent enemies then this situation never comes into play.
Separately, are the characters proficient with all of the weapon types listed in their class, or only the particular weapons that are on the pre-gen sheet? These can be retrained, since the armor and weapon proficiencies work like feats, correct?
I think it should be all the proficiencies listed for the class. But I do not think they are retrainable. PHB-28: retraining can “change one feat, power, or skill”. If the proficiencies count as feats then Tira could conceivably retrain her unused cloth proficiency for, e.g., the Astral Fire feat. A character could gain several unintended feats by sticking with one weapon and/or armour type. As always, if the DM says we can, then we can. Any other thoughts on this?
Doesn’t the opportunity attack interrupt the action that provoked it? So, the troll would get his swing into Tira before he died?
Separately, are the characters proficient with all of the weapon types listed in their class, or only the particular weapons that are on the pre-gen sheet? These can be retrained, since the armor and weapon proficiencies work like feats, correct?
Regarding ranged attacks, you can certainly attack adjacent targets
I will happily accept the DM’s ruling on this. Although that is not the way I read the rules. PHB-270: “A ranged attack is a strike against a distant target.” To me, adjacent is not a subset of distant. I think of it as trying to use a bow on someone standing next to you. The opponent can easily hit the bow, or otherwise disrupt the firing enough to cause a probably miss. But, as mentioned, if the DM says Tira can blast the troll standing next to her then so be it. If the troll dies during the blast then no return opportunity attack will be forthcoming. :)
Regarding the crossbow with the light shield – it states (PHB 214) that you cannot use your shield hand to make attacks. So this would prevent you from using both the crossbow and the light shield together. You could certainly bring both – but like zplayer said, it would take a minor action to unload & stow the crossbow (I’d let you do both with 1 minor) and then the standard to get out the shield – or conversely, a standard action to put away the shield, and a minor action to load the crossbow. To avoid the standard action you could also simply drop the shield on the ground (a free action), but of course that causes it’s own difficulties…
Regarding ranged attacks, you can certainly attack adjacent targets – just beware that it does indeed provoke an opportunity attack. So Tira is perfectly capable of using her Eldritch Blast on that troll standing right next to her (!), and then he’ll turn right around and swing at her with his big club…
Definitely bring the crossbow, and much, much later, I’ll be able to bring a bow and arrow, maybe December – January.
SirEdward, what is the spreadsheet character sheet that you liked so much?
No matter what, bringing the crossbow would be great! Unless the DM feels otherwise, the more I think about it, the more I think you are correct. Z’alden could have a shield but would have to spend a standard action to put it on after the crossbow had been used. Have to ponder that trade-off. Any thoughts from anyone on that sort of cost (standard action for +1 AC and +1 Reflex)?
can a 2-handed crossbow be used when a light shield is also used?
Hmm, I am thinking no. From the game point of view: You need both hands to be fully dexterous on the crossbow to attack, hence the no 2 handed attack rule when holding a shield, and the crossbow is defined as a 2 handed weapon. From a realistic point of view: When a shield is strapped to your arm your hand does not extend past the shield. It is easy to bend your hand forward, e.g., to grab something, but not easy to bend it backward. When holding a crossbow the non-trigger hand is usually bent back quite a bit, something that would not work with a shield. I can bring my crossbow next time if you want to try it yourself. Of course, if the DM decides to allow it then I would not argue. :)
SirEdward, darn it, I agree entirely. I had missed those other sections. It is very clear. Pooh. Looks like Tira will have to become an expert at shifting back 1 square when an enemy bellies up to her (so will Z’alden in most cases).
In a separate issue, can a 2-handed crossbow be used when a light shield is also used? I am thinking yes to maybe, because PHB 214 reads that “You can still use (your shield) hand to hold another item…However, you cannot use your shield hand to make attacks.” With the 2-handed crossbow, the shield hand would be holding the bow. What Z’alden couldn’t do is get the two-handed bonus (+1 damage) for the mace. What do others think? If the shield would work with the crossbow, then Z’alden will trade a feat for Shield proficiency at 3rd level.
I wish ranged basic attacks did not provoke opportunity attacks, that would allow Tira to use her Eldritch Blast when adjacent. In the main description of opportunity attacks PHB-290, it does say using a “ranged power” provokes, and would seem that ranged basic do not provoke; but PHB-287 says otherwise: “Like other ranged attacks, ranged basic attacks provoke opportunity attacks”. We can decide as a group which way to play it.
I also read the rules to state that weapons or powers that are listed as Ranged cannot be used on an adjacent enemy, nor used during opportunity attacks. Ranged is defined as attacking a “distant” enemy (PHB-270).
If all the above is true then Tira is left to only using a basic dagger attack whenever adjacent to an enemy. I would like for Tira to be able to use her Eldritch Blast both on adjacent enemies and on distant enemies while adjacent to another enemy, but that is not how I read the rules.
Perhaps the prohibition on using ranged weapons as a melee weapon (PHB 215) is referring to trying to use the ranged weapon on powers that have the melee keyword. Maybe that isn’t prohibiting using a ranged weapon against an enemy that you are adjacent to?
Below we discussed how PHB 290 says that the use of ranged and area “powers” when adjacent to an enemy provoke an opportunity attack. But, I had missed that this means that ranged basic attacks, like a crossbow, do not? Also Eldritch Blast and Magic Missile both have descriptions that this “power” counts a ranged basic attack (PHB 132, 159). Does that mean that they do not provoke the opportunity attack? Maybe we have been playing it correct all along!
Excellent detail point. Thanks!
Zplayer: A point about the Ranger Hunter’s Quarry, it only targets the enemy nearest you. That was something I missed for a while with Tira’s Warlock Curse. It really makes a difference not being able to target anyone.
More corrections upon more careful reading of the rules and the errata. 1. I have been making an error saying that an ally gets +2 on his next attack when Lance of Faith is used. The ally only gets +2 if the attack is made to the same target that Z’alden just hit. The Lance of Faith illuminates the target guiding the allies attack.
2. On the plus side, the update to the PHB says that the Warrior of the Wild feat use of the Ranger Hunter’s Quarry has the addition: “The target you designate as your quarry remains your quarry until the end of your next turn.” It is good for 2 rounds, not just one as I played it last session.
3. Finally, I have also been making an error by “retrieving” crossbow bolts. The PHB pg 221 says that these (and arrows and sling bullets) are one-time-use only. I’ll keep better track.
Yes, Felsmon can switch his Feat of Healing Hands for the Feat of Dragonborn Senses. Low-level vision, eh?
DM, can Felsmon switch his Feat of Healing Hands for the Feat of Dragonborn senses as his Level 2 retraining? Felsmon didn’t make any switches. Thanks!
Going over Z’alden’s character sheet, I am realizing that the -1 Dex/Cons/Str skill checks had never been applied. I am, sadly, applying them. Luckily, the crossing of the ladder was not close!
Z’alden, yes, that 1d10 applies to the damage for any power that has the “Implement” keyword.
Z’alden’s new Symbol of battle does an extra 1d10 damage once per day. In an attack that is a close burst, does that 1d10 add to the single damage roll which impacts all that were hit?
Healing Lore applies to cleric powers; skills are not powers, thus it would not apply in this case. It would be nice if it did.
The Cleric has “healing lore” which gives a +3 hp bonus to anything with the healing keyword. Should this also apply to the use of the Heal skill, when aiding another to use their second wind without their having to spend an action?
Okay… I took off the +1 to dagger attacks from Staff of the War Mage. Fortunately Skamos hasn’t needed to do any dagger attacks! Right now the melee dagger attack is +4 = level (+1), proficiency (+3) and when thrown +6 = level (+1), proficiency (+3), dexterity (+2).
SirEdmunds, does the Staff of the War Mage convey its bonus to the throwing daggers?
No, you are correct, I was mistaken, it does not apply to daggers, thrown or not. Thanks for pointing that out. Which then brings back up the question to dredmuns, how did you come up with +7 for Skamos’ dagger attacks?
The way I read Hunter’s Quarry is that is applies to any attack, power or not, thus it would apply to Z’alden’s Cleric powers. That is very similar to Tira’s Warlock Curse, a very useful addition. :)
DM, can Z’alden’s new Warrior of the Wild Feat feature: once per encounter (PHB 104)Hunter’s Quarry be used with Cleric Prayers, or only with range and melee weapons? I can’t see anything in the description that limits it to range and melee weapons, but rangers aren’t exactly running around lighting up the sky with radiant blasts.
SirEdmunds, does the Staff of the War Mage convey its bonus to the throwing daggers? I thought that if you attack with the staff as a melee weapon, you get its +1 on attack and damage (PHB 240). If you attack with any power or spell that has the Implement keyword, you get a +1 on attack and damage. But, I didn’t think you get to add the bonus to range weapons or other melee weapons.
how does he get the +7 attack for the thrown daggers?
Dexterity (+2), level (+1), proficiency (+3), Staff of War Mage (+1)
Surely he has the components for Tenser’s Floating Disk tucked away in robe pocket somewhere
Those components only cost 10gp, they must be easy to obtain, common items, like the ones I have lying in the bottom of my backpack. :)
Skamos rocks! The scorching burst will be very nasty.
Surely he has the components for Tenser’s Floating Disk tucked away in robe pocket somewhere, right DM? Right?
Oh, how does he get the +7 attack for the thrown daggers? There’s Dexterity bonus, proficiency bonus, + 1/2 level. Is there something else? Z’alden wants to make sure he is getting everything he can for his crossbow!
Skamos does not currently have the components for his rituals, unless the benevolent DM says he does. If not, we’ll have to wait and consider buying them back in Winterhaven.
Tira will need to give back that “wand of accuracy” because it’s Skamos’ mastered arcane implement. (I thought it was a “+2 wand of accuracy! No such thing.)
Looks like Skamos is now ready to go. He’s pretty mean with thrown daggers… +7! His scorching burst attacks with +7 and does 1d6+7 with a normal burst of 1 (2, once daily). It’s “at will”. Oh yeah.
Skamos is too embarrassed to mention his 2nd level utility spell, but it’s “Expeditious Retreat” (see ya and good luck, friends!) Every wizard needs to be able to disappear in a puff of smoke.
SirEdward and I posted almost simultaneously. Funky world. Oh, and a big Welcome Back! I forgot to say that the choices look good, but what new 2nd level Utility spell is Skamos taking?
DM and – dredmuns, does Skamos have any components for the Rituals? Getting over those sharp toothed bunnies could be really useful!
How do we quote from someone else’s post?
(1) Are dagger attach different when thrown v. close in? My old character sheet had them as different (+6 when thrown, +4 close; 1d4 +2 when thrown, 1d4 close). Didn’t see anything in the book to back this up.
Yes, thrown is using a range weapon so the bonuses are from Dexterity, while close up is using Strength. I assume the Skamos has a 14 or 15 Dexterity, so on the damage he gets a +2 dexterity bonus for thrown but no strength bonus in melee if strength is 10 or 11. On the attack, at 1st level he gets a +2 dex bonus plus +3 for being proficient, plus 1/2 level =0. I can’t get it up to a +6 at 1st level, though, so there is something that I am missing. At 2nd level, all attacks go up +1.
(2) Skamos is now the proud owner of a Staff of the War Mage. The “level” of the staff is 3+. There are several sub-questions: (2a) Does Skamos need to be level 3 to get the bonus? Pretty sure it is fine to use. Level is the level of the item. (2b) Does the bonus apply to dagger attacks and damage? How about attacks with the staff itself?
From PHB 240, the bonus applies to attacks with the staff itself (nifty!)
(2c) Does the damage bonus apply to ongoing damage (such as from acid)? (Oh yeah!) On PHB 241, the description says Enhancement: Attack rolls and damage rolls. So, I wouldn’t think that ongoing damage was enhanced. (Plus 1 to all spells that have the Implement keyword. All the time. Wow.)
(3) How does a wizard’s “arcane implement mastery” work? Skamos had a wand of accuracy but gave it to Tira. Should he take it back? Does the Staff of the War Mage serve as a “staff of defense”, if a staff is the arcane implement Skamos chooses to master?
_I would expect that Skamos would have to retrain the Arcane Implement Mastery from Wand of Accuracy mastery to Staff of Defense mastery at 2nd Level (which we just reached!), otherwise Skamos is stuck with the Mastery Wand of Accuracy. But, PHB 28 doesn’t mention the ability to retain a Class Feature, so you may have to ask Herr DM very nicely. I think that the wand Skamos gave Tira is just a wand. The “wand of accuracy” part is a Wizard Feature, not a magic item. But, to use the Wand of Accuracy feature, Skamos does need a wand.
Welcome back Doug!!
(1) Are dagger attach different when thrown v. close in?
Yes, when close in Skamos uses his Strength as his modifier, in his case +0, and when thrown use his Dexterity (+2) to the normal 1d4 of a dagger; for his level one it should be +3 close (1d4) and +5 when thrown (1d4+2). The attack bonuses go up 1 for 2nd level.
(2a) Does Skamos need to be level 3 to get the bonus?
No. He gets the bonus right now.
(2b) Does the bonus apply to dagger attacks and damage? How about attacks with the staff itself?
Yes, it adds to any attack as long as Skamos is wielding the staff. If he uses the staff by itself it is +2vsAC (+3 for 2nd level), 1d8 damage (see quarterstaff).
(2c) Does the damage bonus apply to ongoing damage (such as from acid)?
I do not think so (anyone know differently?)
(3) How does a wizard’s “arcane implement mastery” work?
You were supposed to pick either orb, staff, or wand back at the beginning. If you choose the staff, then yes you get the AC bonus and the interrupt bonus, but the interrupt does Skamos no good as his Constitution modifier is +0. This is, of course, as long as you are weilding a staff.
For Feats, Skamos already has Stealth training, go with the Hellfire Blood
For Rituals I see more potential for the floating disc than the other two choices.
For spells, doesn’t Skamos have all the one you listed?
(This time, with formatting, hopefully.) Just so powers don’t overlap too much, here are Skamos’ choices. Let me know if I should adjust some or you have suggestions.
Feats * Skill training in stealth (net of +9) * Hellfire Blood (+1 attack and damage with fire and fear powers)
Rituals * Comprehend Language * Silence * Tenser’s Floating Disk (anyone need to get over a moat of bunny rabbits with sharp, nasty teeth?)
Spells (that are relevant) * Magic Missile (more than just a poke in the eye) * Scorching Burst (effects increased by Hellfire Blood feat; Staff of the War Mage can increase burst to 2 (once daily); burn baby burn!) * Force Orb (primary target and all adjacent squares as secondary targets; shardadelic baby, yeah!) * Acid Arrow (primary target and all adjacent squares as secondary targets; ongoing damage; damage primary even if miss; melt baby melt!)
I’m back from vacation and have been working on updating Skamos to level 2. I have a bunch of questions…
(1) Are dagger attach different when thrown v. close in? My old character sheet had them as different (+6 when thrown, +4 close; 1d4 +2 when thrown, 1d4 close). Didn’t see anything in the book to back this up.
(2) Skamos is now the proud owner of a Staff of the War Mage. The “level” of the staff is 3+. There are several sub-questions: (2a) Does Skamos need to be level 3 to get the bonus? (2b) Does the bonus apply to dagger attacks and damage? How about attacks with the staff itself? (2c) Does the damage bonus apply to ongoing damage (such as from acid)? (Oh yeah!)
(3) How does a wizard’s “arcane implement mastery” work? Skamos had a wand of accuracy but gave it to Tira. Should he take it back? Does the Staff of the War Mage serve as a “staff of defense”, if a staff is the arcane implement Skamos chooses to master?
Felsmon is taking Sacred Circle,he also gets +1 his feat is enlarged Dragon Breath,HP 33,AC 21,FORT 16,REF 14,and a Will of 15.-1 to all attacks till the end of the next encounter.
3×3. I agree with the strategy of using many of the area attacks and encounter powers as soon as the enemy layout warrants it.
SirEdward, how big is Tira’s Close blast? A plan with using that might be to make sure that Tira is next to Felsmon and adjacent to the bad guys. If Felsmon uses Divine Challenge on the baddie, then the baddie would take damage if he attacked Tira (and be -2 I think). Just make sure Tira doesn’t toast Barrick!
Felsmon tells me that he is taking 2nd level utility power of Sacred Circle. Everything else stays the same + 1.
Z’alden is going to have taken Ranger training in Perception instead of Athletics. Let Barrick and Felsmon handle the strong stuff. Z’alden wants to notice clues, detect secret doors, spot imminent dangers, find traps (NO more pits!), follow tracks, listen for sounds behind a closed door, or locate hidden objects. He’ll have a +9 Perception, with a Passive Perception of 19.
Depending on distances, maybe a default first round set of actions would be to have Felsmon and Skamos use their fairly large (I think both are 5X5) blasts, then Tira and Barrick get closer with Tira using her blast (3X3?) and Barrick hurling some hammers?, then Z’alden can use Sacred Flame at a range of 5 to get whomever has the lowest hit point 3 temporary hit points or fire a crossbow bolt if the range is further. It came as a shock that the three power users have been “skirting” the rules to put it nicely using their range powers as melee (thanks DM :-). But, we should probably play by the rules and figure out how to shift back a square to make the range powers work, or fight in formations that allow them to be used effectively.
Having Barrick and Felsmon (maybe Z’alden) “bull rush” to move the bad guys out of the way may be necessary to make space for those range power users. This isn’t something that we have tried, yet.
I had forgotten about the ranged attacks leading to an opportunity attack. But that raises another point, on pg 215 (PHB) is says, “You can’t use a ranged weapon as a melee weapon.” I guess that means you have to attack someone other than the adjacent foe if you have a ranged weapon/power.
Tira has one encounter power that is not ranged, but otherwise every single attack power she has is ranged. I guess that could mean Tira should never engage the enemy, less she be reduced to stabbing with a simple dagger (1d4 damage). Hmm, not being able to use her wand, or any power, when adjacent really makes a difference. With this in mind, Tira will do her best not to get in the way of the dragon breath or the orb of force. And as a point, Tira has one close blast encounter power that also affects all creatures, both good and evil, as well.
I have gotten so used to the pre-gen look, I think I’ll stick with that. I am modifying it using Word.
I was thinking that before we play next, we could have a discussion about tactics. Felsmon’s and Skamos area weapons (dragon breath and ?Orb of Force?) do not distinguish foe from friend. Maybe we should make sure that they both get a chance to use that encounter area power before melee starts, and we get up close to the bad guys? Also, because the use of range attacks when next to an opponent will provoke an opportunity attack, if Skamos, Tira, and Z’alden want to keep using enchanted range attacks, we’ll need Barrick and Felsmon to keep the baddies away to the extent possible. I’m not sure if there is anyway to have general discussion of that, or if it has to be on a case-by-case basis.
Do you guys have new character sheets? There are some good ones out on the web. Better than the one at the back of the PHB.
http://www.dragonavenue.com/dnd/post/4th_edition_character_sheets_and_power_cards/
Trying to correct my misplays – Z’alden has several times used his Lance of Faith while adjacent to an enemy. Luckily, none of those enemies have taken the opportunity attack that the PHB pg 271 says could have been happening. When adjacent to an enemy, can one shift back 1 square as a move action and then use the range attack without provoking an opportunity attack?
Note, Z’alden is still trading in the Encounter power “Healing Strike” which never strikes, to Divine Glow.
Z’alden has re-thought these level 2 decisions after noticing that Felsmon has 2 heals per day that he has yet to use. 2nd level utility power will still be the daily Cure Light Wounds, which won’t show up until after an extended rest. Half-Elf Dilettante Encounter power will be the Ranger Twin Strike which works with either a melee or a ranged weapon. 2nd level Feat will be the Multiclass Ranger Warrior of the Wild, which gives the Feature Hunter’s Quarry once per encounter. The Ranger Trained skill will be Athletics. Reworked ability scores are Str: 13, Con: 16, Dex: 12, Int: 9, Wis: 16, Cha: 14. 2nd level hit points: 33. 2nd level defenses are AC 18, Fort 14, Reflex 12, Will 16.
For Tira’s level 2: She is not going to rework her abilities all that much, just swap a couple points of intelligence for dexterity. Her new ability scores are as follows: Str 10, Con 16, Dex 13, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 18. Her level 2 stats are: Defenses: AC 15, Fort 14, Ref 14, Will 16, Passive insight 17, Passive perception 10, Max HP 33. She will retrain her dilettante power to have the Wizard Thunderwave as an encounter power. She will gain the Far Shot feat, giving her a range of 15 on all her distance attacks. And she will add the 2nd level utility spell of Ethereal Stride, allowing her to teleport at will. I think those are all the changes for now.
Well, as much as we could use those 2 new heals per day that Z’alden will be getting, I agree with SirEdward. Let’s take our new bonuses on attacks and defense, hit points, and get out of Dodge before the changing of the guard.
I would think that anything used as a daily power needs follow the rules for a daily power; not usable until after an extended rest.
After thinking about this for a bit, I really think we should not rest, but continue on through the keep, regardless of leveling up or not. Thinking realistically, the last time I (eddie) leveled up (gained strength or ability through practice), I was unaware of it until after I took an extended rest. I doubt our characters suddenly would be aware of a power they cannot use, rather they become aware of a power that now can be used. All the characters are healthy, they just got an increase in attacks and defenses, and have access to some new powers; let’s get on with the adventure and let the mundane paperwork of resting happen when it happens. If it becomes appropriate/necessary to leave for a long rest, then, bonus, we gain access to the new daily powers.
Z’alden’s new Warlord feat includes getting to use the Warlord Inspiring Word once-per-day. Does that count as a daily power that has to be rested for, or is it a “feat” which we get immediately? This will make a difference in whether Z’alden feels compelled to take that picnic on the grassy knoll ;-)
We are close enough to the entrance that it should be OK to go out and rest if Z’alden really wants to. Assuming we can either get Splug to cooperate, or we can get all the useful information out of him first.
In terms of getting over a pit, Tira now has a 2nd level teleport utility spell, but that only goes for 15’ (3 squares). If we had a 5 square pit to cross two of the other stronger characters could toss her part way (I would think a 10’ toss of a lightweight half-elf girl would not be unreasonable (and fun!)) and she could teleport the rest. Then secure rope, whatever.
Speaking of the pit, who has a high perception (Tira is -1) that did not look for such a thing? :) Methinks we need be a little more careful in the future.
Z’alden will want to get those daily powers ( 2 new ways to heal) before setting out. Splug can turn down the little forest sojourn he suggested, answer the question about Sir Keegan’s ghost, and then we can go from there.
Separately, does anyone have a power, ability, that would get over a dangerous wide pit that one cannot go around? Suppose the pit that Barrick fell into had extended say 4 squares and gone all the way to the walls so that we could not skirt around it. How would we have crossed it?
Ack. Good thing world governments don’t do negotiations over blog posts.
Zplayer is correct – you don’t get a +1 to your actual abilities. Not until 4th level or something like that.
Regarding the leveling up, you can immediately start using all your new powers (even those you just traded/exchanged), except for daily powers.
For completeness, here’s the DM’s email: Hi all,
Okay, you are all level 2.
For the past weeks, your characters have been preparing for this exciting moment by studying ancient tomes, practicing martial feats, meditating, and praying.
Therefore, you do not need to rest to gain all of the benefits of your new level, except for daily powers. If you have any new daily powers (either your new utility power/exploit or a daily power from retraining) then you will gain that after your next extended rest.
If possible, try to make all of your level 2 choices by the next session. This also includes any redistribution of your ability scores, as explained on the campaign blog. Please post your level 2 stats on the campaign blog, under the general comments section. This way, we will be able to leap right in to “Splug Rulz” without any delay or resting. ++++++++++++++++++++ Are we going to have to get Splug to lead us somewhere safe? I would really like Z’alden to have his new daily powers before we encounter any serious baddies – he’ll have 2 new ways per day to heal, which means 3 different daily healings, plus 2 per encounter.
At level 2, we don’t get to increase our abilities. Only the modifiers for the skills (Acrobatics, Arcana, etc), the defenses (AC, Will, Fortitude, etc) and our attacks. But Barrick’s 17 strength would stay 17. At 4th level, we get to increase 2 abilities by 1.
In the DM’s email, he said that we get everything associated with 2nd level except those new daily powers and altered feats/powers (both Tira and Z’alden are swapping out a previously held encounter power with something “better”). The post “gorthmog says: September 22, 2008 at 02:15 AM” made me think that we get everything. The exception for the daily powers is perfectly fair, but I wanted to make sure that the post didn’t override the email. Thanks for clarifying!
OK, thanks for the advice. Based on it, I would spend 12 of my 22 to bring Strength up to 17, and 5 each to bring Constitution and Dexterity up to 14. With my Dwarven attributes, I would be at Str – 17, Con – 16, Dex – 14, Int – 10, Wis – 12, and Cha – 8. For level 2, I would up my Strength to 18. Slow-witted but not unwise, as charming as, well, a Dwarf, but newly strong, and still tough and athletic!
Fantastic!
Interesting post on choosing ability scores
Regarding resting – you don’t need to rest to get your 2nd level benefits – In short, don’t rest, just forge ahead!
BergRick, I agree that a well-rounded character is too milquetoast – boring. Rock at a few things and let the party balance out the shortcomings. But the steep price for an 18 for the Cleric’s most important feature Wisdom was out of my price range if I still wanted decent defenses. That was the other item I considered: could Z’alden get a +1 or more in 3 Abilities that are used in Fortitude, Will, and Reflex. I also wanted a higher Dexterity for better Initiative and ranged attacks, and a higher Constitution for more hit points. This way Z’alden can be a little more in the front line. I sacrificed Intelligence and a bit of Charisma. The temporary hit points that Z’alden can give out are dependent on Charisma, but the advance to 2nd level makes up for the loss of a +3 Charisma down to +2.
Oh, on your other question, I think we should have the 2nd level decisions made, and hopefully get to play again at 2nd level by figuring out where to safely rest, probably with Splurge in tow. I am very torn about this because the DM stated obliquely that the torture room was not a good place to rest. This makes me think that the 5 of us and Splurge need to leave the castle and hang out in the good part of the forest.
I would have to say “no”, having a well-rounded character doesn’t really do you any good. Besides, it’s boring. You can always role play to get around any ability shortcomings, and it is just too useful (and too cool!) to have a super-high strength. I would crank up the strength, and let the other abilities fall where they might.
Anyone else have thoughts?
I could use a wee bit of advice from players who have taken characters to high levels. My pregenerated ability scores are Str – 16, Con – 16, Dex – 13, Int – 10, Wis – 14, and Cha – 11. Upon analyzing the generation of scores, I see that my current scores could have been achieved by any of the 3 methods, although I’m pretty sure they weren’t rolled.
I could go one of two ways. I could load up on Strength, taking it to the maximum of 18, at the great expense of other abilities, which would lose far more points than the two that would be added to Strength, because – well, you all know by now how Method 2 works.
The other way to go would be to maximize the total number of these points, by bringing everything up to 13 to start, which is cheap. The leftover 2 points would goose my strength up to 14, while my Dwarf class attributes would bring Constitution and Wisdom up to 15. I would have a very well-rounded Dwarf.
The question is, what is the point to a well-rounded Dwarf? As the game progresses, do the non-Strength abilities come into play so much that the benefits, if I survive, would override the weakness I would suffer from in the early levels? I doubt it – but wiser players might know better.
Yes, that all sounds correct. You certainly don’t have to do anything with your ability scores if you are happy with them. There were just a couple of people who weren’t quite happy with the pregenerated scores, and since we didn’t create those characters ourselves, there is no need to penalize anyone.
But on the other hand, it is sometimes fun to role play a slightly less-than-optimized character.
Just to make sure I understand correctly: We are starting from scratch with our 6 abilities, so that we may adjust them more to our liking, rather than taking the pre-generated values we have been using until now. But, we are not changing anything except those 6 ability scores, and to change them we have to use the algorithm given in Method 2 on page 17. Plus, we are moving to level 2, and so have to make some choices for that. And, we should report here the choices we make before our next meeting. And, we should settle what to do with Splug before then – looks like we have extracted some info from him, and will take him along. Have I got all this correct?
Using the point-buy system, I took 9 points to take Wisdom from 10 to 16, 3 points to take Strength from 10 to 13, 5 points to take Constitution from 10 to 14, 2 points to take Dexterity from 10 to 12, 2 points to take Charisma from 10 to 12, and the remaining point for taking Intelligence from 8 to 9 (living with all the -1 penalties). Then, with a half-elf +2 for Consitution and Charisma, Z’alden’s new stats are Str 13 (+1), Cons 16 (+3), Dex 12 (+1), Int 9 (-1), Wis 16 (+3), Cha 14 (+2). This puts his 1st level hit points at 28 and 2nd level hit points at 33. Defenses will be 1st level (AC 17 – with the +1 Armor, Fort 13, Reflex 11, Will 15); 2nd level adds +1 to all 4. Oh, that 2nd Ritual sitting in Z’alden’s ritual book is Comprehend Languages. Of course, no components!
On the more detail player side, I think that Z’alden should have been getting some -1 penalties to Strength and Dexterity related Skills because of his original chainmail (PHB pg 214). Does the +1 Dwarven armor overcome this -1 check that it appears was never applied on the original pre-gen character sheet?
As long as you promise not to become “power gamers” who are intent on squeezing every last drop of +XX out of your character…
Then, since you did not originally roll up your characters, I see no problem in letting you re-work your character ability scores, using the “point buy” (customizing scores) system in the PHB p. 17. Note that you still need to qualify for your class, and all of your current (level 1) powers, and don’t forget to add racial bonuses.
Upon reaching 2nd level Tira is going to add Ethereal Stride as her utility power (allows her to teleport), and will train in acrobatics as her feat (as noted below, there are not many feats available to her at the moment), she really wants to jump something sometime. Tira will also retrain her dilettante power to wizard Thunderwave, giving her a blast option.
I wish I could up stats as well, Tira’s strength and dexterity are low enough that she cannot use a large majority of the feats out there. At 4th level two stats get a +1, and there are magical items out there that can boost an attribute here and there (DM: hint hint) but otherwise we are stuck as the gods (or whomever rolled the primordial dice) made us.
Felsmon, that sounds like a good combination of powers. I don’t know of an easy way to raise your wisdom.
Where is your character’s picture? Ask Z’alden for help.
1.Sorry i`ve been a little lax. My Lay on Hands power is at will but it also says that it`s daily because Felsmon`s wisdom is only +1.Is it possible to raise Felsmon’s wisdom modifier somehow? For 2nd level Utility power, Felsmon is taking Martyr’s Blessing. For 2nd level Feat, Felsmon is taking Enlarged Dragon Breath.
Excellent! Much healing all around. Now, if we could only decide what to do with little Splug while we rest up for 2nd level…
Z’alden: yes, you simply need to look for the “Healing” keyword. Any power/item that has that keyword is eligible for the +3 bonus.
Z’alden has “Healer’s Lore” which allows him to add +3 hit point to his healing. Will this apply to his new “Inspiring Word” once-per-day under the Multi-class Warlord feat? Also, the Dwarven +1 armor heals a healing surge once per day. Does Z’alden get the +3 hp Healer’s Lore bonus for that?
Z’alden, yes, you can certainly take the multiclass warlord feat. Sounds powerful!
Group – my notes and memory on “To the keep” are, um, sketchy. So please, please make corrections on the main post using the edit. For instance, in the room with the 4 burning braziers were there 2, 3, or 4 goblin buggers, with one running away?? Please also feel very free to make amendments and more elaborately describe the adventure.
Thanks! Here’s another question. For the new feat at level 2, can we be taking a “Multiclass Feat”? Z’alden is very interested in the Warlord multiclass feat.
Hey Z’alden, according to the char sheet that I have for you, your Healing Strike only does 2d8 + 1, which would be correct, yes? The attack is indeed +3 vs AC, and that does include the +2 proficiency bonus. If you switched weapons, to say a chair, then it would drop down to only a +1 for heaving that upholstered piece of furniture.
More rule questions. On Z’alden’s pre-gen character sheet, he is +3 with a Mace, and +2 with a crossbow. So, he is +2 for proficiency on Mace and crossbow and an additional +1 for strength (13) with the Mace. His Healing Strike is listed on the character sheet as +3 vs. AC and does 2d8+3. In the PHB63, Healing Strike is “Strength vs. AC” and the damage is 2[W] + Strength. Well, the Mace does 1d8, but buff Z’alden’s Strength of 13 would make this +1, I would have thought. It appears that the pre-gen also got the proficiency bonus. Should the proficiency bonus be applied or not when using a weapon to make a power happen? (The question is almost academic because Z’alden is praying to trade this Healing Strike for Divine Glow at 2nd level.)
When an ooze grabs you I would think you would have to do an Escape check as your move action, which includes a shift, to try and get out. It would take a few of those to get through the ooze, taking damage as you go. As level 1s it would be mostly hack and slash to get out, but at level 2 Tira gains a teleport utility power, thus she could teleport out, throw a rope back, and considerably lower the DC for someone to jump over the ooze; or at least kill a rat or two so the others could bull rush and push an ooze back allowing for escape. If everyone became grabbed by the oozes then you are down to hacking and escape attempts. It would be fun to try though. :)
On a separate note; whilst going over the rules I noticed that stowing or equipping a weapon is a minor action, but doing the same with a shield is a standard action. Also loading a crossbow is a minor action. Somethings I think we have ignored.
I’m a little concerned about how our little group of adventurers would have handled that ooze describe at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1085702 . If an ooze sucks you in, how do you get out? Would a save help there? Z’alden has some powers to help others get to make a saving throw. I guess as long as you don’t have a finite number (such as when dying) that would be useful. Mostly, I think that the main thing is to perceive the thing first, run away a little, then attack it using range weapons and powers.
Regarding the Ooze fight:
It sounds like it would not have been so difficult to leap over these low Oozes. A taller monster or obstacle could perhaps be passed by having the smallest PC climb to the shoulders of the tallest, and leap from there, with help from Aid Another. I could even envision a pyramid. Hey, they even do this sort of thing in a pool – anyone else ever actually watch Synchronized Swimming, instead of just joking about it? OK, might not be feasible in the middle of hot combat, but it’s something to try sometime.
Bahamut is a nice guy…er, dragon. So yes, you can just do an extended rest, and presto…wake up as a new cleric!
I agree with BergRick on the “ganging up” but I think it would cost up more than it costs the bad guys because I am expecting us to be outnumbered more often.
2. Dilettante encounter attack ability for Z’alden will be the Warlock Eldritch Blast with Charisma as the attack. Can he start using it immediately?
For 2nd level soon, Z’alden is going to take the 2nd level utility prayer of Cure Light Wounds and the feat of Group Insight, which will give all allies within 10 squares a +1 to Insight checks and to Initiative. Z’alden also will “retrain” (pg 28 PHB) from the lousy “Healing Strike” Cleric Attack 1 Encounter power (which has missed every time!) for “Divine Glow” which fits him better and will give all allies within a close blast 3 a +2 power bonus to attack rolls until the end of his next turn, while doing 1d8+3 radiant damage to all enemies in the blast area. Does “retraining” have to happen in a town, or can Bahamut grant that on the spot at the same time that the Level 2 utility prayer is bestowed, and all those great numbers increase?
Another flanking post:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1077287&highlight=flanking
Looks like there are two main arguments – one based on how easy/hard it is to fight more than 2 people (like my previous comment), which I now think are “bogus”. The other argument is based on what the game designers were thinking – especially regarding how there are usually more monsters (think minions) than PCs, so monsters would achieve flanking more easily. Not good for game balance. Also, for rogues, it might make it too easy to flank and get the rogue “backstab” advantage. Again, it might upset game balance.
Ah well. Just do something wicked cool instead, like leap over the enemy… Here’s another thread that has some interesting tactical ideas:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1085702
What would you do in such a situation?
On flanking: I read the post on this topic, and remain unconvinced. At its simplest, the point is that a second assailant in a flanking position gets a flanking bonus, whereas a third assailant next to the second gets no bonus. This seems unrealistic, Jackie Chan or no Jackie Chan. Perhaps it should be called a “ganging up on” bonus rather than flanking. (Yeah, I know, D&D only approximates realism, but it does try pretty hard.) Well, I wouldn’t want to clutter up our game with custom rules – but how does one put in a request for changes in the next version of the Player’s Handbook?
My pre-gen character listed 3 at will spells, one of which was a wizard attack spell, Ray of Frost (is Z’alden the same or truly missing a power?). As Tira should only have 2 at will powers I assumed it was a typo and that the wizard spell was my dilettante encounter power. However, I have not used that spell as it is worse than my standard Eldritch Blast. If I had had the choice I would have chosen the wizard attack Thunderwave instead. DM: I know we can retrain certain things on level ups, since this was not my choice of a spell, would it be OK to retrain this unused spell either at level up or maybe even now?
I agree the flanking rules are odd, but am content to play as written, especially since as gorthmog says, the monsters would have the same advantage, and as there are frequently more of them than us, such a change of ruling could hurt us.
I just rolled a 20, can I hold on to that and use it as my next attack roll?
Now I’ve got a question – Z’alden and Skamos – did you ever pick your Ritual Casting rituals?
On the topic of throwing hammers – I think any weapon that can be used for both melee and throwing (like daggers and hammers) is listed as a “melee” weapon. Regardless, you should talk to Thair Coalstriker III. I bet he’d give you a good deal!
Regarding flanking, here is an interesting post: * http://www.enworld.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-43329.html
I think the flanking rules are done that way on purpose. Looking at the picture in the PHB p. 285, it’s pretty clear that you’ve got to occupy the opposite corners. In that post above, the one guy makes the best point:
“On this specific point, I can tell you that it’s sometimes easier to fight two people than 1, easier to fight 3 than 1, and easier to fight 4 than 1. Especially when you can keep them all one one side of you, like your rule gives bonuses to the wrong side for. It’s also harder to fight two people who are opposite sides of you than it is to fight two people who are beside each other (this is the easiest thing to verify, which is why they made it the default flanking rule in D&D I think).”
So I would suggest that we keep the flanking rules the same. Besides, what works for the characters works just the same for the monsters…
On the topic of flanking: It seems to me, as it seemed to all of us the other night, that a third warrior adjacent to an enemy should gain the flanking advantage enjoyed by the flankers. What is the enemy going to do, turn to face the third assailant and ignore the other two? What is the traditional fix for bugs in the rulebook?
I don’t understand why a Throwing Hammer is listed under melee weapons, rather than ranged weapons, and in fact I missed noting its possibilities, for that reason. I do have throwing daggers, which I have seldom bothered with. But, since I am proficient with Throwing Hammers, and they’re cheap, and only weigh twice as much as daggers, maybe they would come in handy after all. Good suggestion!
That shield came in so handy, protecting me from the Hobgoblin, I’m a shield fan now. Samos is right, put the money into armor and weaponry.
Regarding temporary hit points, I would say yes, you can bestow more than once. If it doesn’t explicitly say that you cannot bestow them twice on the same character, then sure, go for it!
1. Temporary Hit Points . But that part of the PHB doesn’t answer the question. Once the temporary hit points are “spent”, can you get more? For example, Z’alden bestows 4 Temporary Hit Points on Skamos. Then a goblin hits Skamos for 6 hp damage. The 4 hp are gone first and then Skamos takes 2 hp of actual damage. The next round, Z’alden tries to bestow 4 More Temporary Hit Points on Skamos. Can he?
2. & 3. Thanks for the clarification that it has to be an attack power. (had better read those errata).
4. Barrick, did you know that you a throwing hammer proficiency according to the PHB?
1. Temporary Hit Points (PHB p. 294): Don’t Add Together: If you get temporary hit points from different sources, use the higher value as your temporary hit point total instead of adding the values together.
2 & 3: DM says “sure!”. Just make sure to add up the current number of powers that you have, to make sure you have the correct number except for the missing one. Also, in the errata, it says that the Dilettante power must be an at-will attack power. Feel free to pick one out.
4. Not sure. Let’s ask Barrick!
Now here’s my comment… you will all be 2nd level soon. You can either use the recommended 2nd level power on your character sheet, or simply pick your own from the PHB. So start thinking about it now!
1. In a single encounter, can Z’alden bestow temporary hit points on the same character a second time if the first temporary hit points have been taken away by an enemy’s attack?
2. In the Player’s Handbook, under Half-elf (pg 42), it lists a racial trait Dilettante as being able to take a class’s At will power and add it to the half-elf as an encounter power. This would be a very useful ability, but the pre-generated Half-Elf Cleric Z’alden seems to have missed out on this part of being a Half-Elf. Maybe at 2nd level this “oversight” could be remedied? Maybe sooner?
3. Does Tira also lack her “Dilettante” encounter power?
4. Does Barrick have all of his racial powers? Maybe he should pick up a throwing hammer the next time we are in town?
The DM says… let’s start a dialog over here.